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Webzine Jezebel (http://jezebel.com/5461712/the-tyranny-of-sexy-female-werewolves-in-pop-culture) takes on the question of why most werewolves are male, at least in film and TV land. Reasons seem to hinge on the perception of werewolves as inherently masculine and just plain not sexy. They're big and strong and violent, not to mention hairy. Vampires can be elegant and sexy, but that's harder to do with were.

Sure there have been some successes with female werewolves like the Gingersnap movies and a few others, but they are in the minority. On the other hand, editor Pam Keesey brings some excellent points about the early historical associations between women particularly witches, and wolves (http://www.myspace.com/pamkeesey, equating sex and power.

As a writer working on a novel about middle-aged women who are also werewolves, I'm pretty invested in whether or not anyone will actually read the book. What do you think? Are werewolves any more "male" than any other kind of monster?

Posted via LiveJournal.app.

Being Human

Date: 2010-02-19 04:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lsanderson.livejournal.com
Being Human season 2 has a GF gone were. not sure where they're going with it.

Re: Being Human

Date: 2010-02-20 06:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Not familiar with Being Human - I'll have to check it out. Thanks!

Date: 2010-02-19 04:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
You have perhaps read Suzy McKee Charnas's "Boobs"? I'm not sure there's any story in the world that speaks more to my pubescent experience.

Of course this did lead me to accost her on the elevator at a WorldCon to gush, "Oh, Suzy, I love your 'Boobs'!", but luckily for me she could hear the quotation marks.

Date: 2010-02-20 06:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Yep. :-) I must admit that it's one of those stories that I wish had more story in it - it sort of drops off into the ending, which doesn't feel like an ending, but I think it's a fine read apart from that.
Terrific anecdote, BTW. I was once on (but not moderating) a particularly hellish panel at WisCon in which axes were being ground and there were some impressive hystrionics. Suzy came in toward the end and sat directly in front of me, looked around, then looked at my expression and said, "Yes, it's bad as you think it is, but it's almost over." :-)

Date: 2010-02-20 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Awesome.

Date: 2010-02-19 04:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pantryslut.livejournal.com
Sexism is sexism, and male is the default. And werewolves, as noted, have some aspects that make them fit well with the default cultural images of men. But I think there's plenty of room for female werewolves, especially in print.

Date: 2010-02-20 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Me too, oddly enough. :-) But I do think some interesting points on pop culture and perception were being raised.

Date: 2010-02-20 07:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pantryslut.livejournal.com
I'm cranky enough this week that I found them more tired (girls can't be werewolves! werewolves are hairy! and violent!) than interesting :/ YMMV, and that's probably healthy. :) Meanwhile, the idea of menopausal werewolf women definitely helps un-crankify me at the moment. First, they start sprouting hair in funny places. Then, their temper gets a noticably shortened fuse. Then, they find they possess and extraordinary strength, right around the full moon...yep, works for me.

Date: 2010-02-20 07:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
True. :-) And given the quality of the "Underworld" movies, I'm thinking Beckinsale should re-evaluate.
Re: menopausal werewolves. I'm finding that when I'm doing readings from the novel in progress, women of a "certain age" do a lot of nodding and mm-hming. Evidently I'm onto something.
Thanks for the encouragement! I woke up with a migraine from hell today so it all helps. :-)

Date: 2010-02-19 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ravenbait.livejournal.com
It might be something to do with the etymology. It could be tradition. It could be that hairy, powerful, predatory carnivores don't quite match up with the feminine ideal (whatever that is, although America's Next Top Model seems to have a handle on what they think it is). As I'm discovering, what actually happens out there in the real world (for a variety of definitions of 'real world') is not necessarily what makes a successful story (and by 'successful' I mean 'marketable').

Would I read a novel about middle-aged women who are also werewolves? Yes. Of course. But what I'd be looking for is a book about werewolves, not a book about women in which the werewolf aspect is a metaphor for something else, as it was in Ginger Snaps. So I'd buy it, and read it, and hope that the werewolf was done well.

I have a thing about werewolves, as you might have gathered.

Date: 2010-02-20 06:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
All things considered, I think I might be willing to watch "Top Model" if it actually had werewolves on it, but then that's true for a lot of things. I actually took the Ginger Snaps movies (of which I am quite fond) and the Suzy Charnas story "Boob" as starting points, figuring that if one can link the onset of puberty with lycanthropy, why not the other end of the cycle?
Thanks for your thoughts!

Date: 2010-02-19 05:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lee-martindale.livejournal.com
I do see werewolves as more "male", and I don't see that as sexism. As you say, there's the whole "big, strong, hairy, violent" thing, which does "read male" to me.

Female weres have been done on occasion, and done well. I'm thinking of Lee Killough's _Wilding Nights_, and Charlaine Harris' treatment of female weres in the Sookie Stackhouse books. Those worked for me, primarily because they cast their were characters in their own defined societies.

Date: 2010-02-20 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Ooh, I haven't run across the Killough book before - I'll have to look for that. I read the first Stackhouse book and found it okay but forgettable. I'll try further along in the series and see how that goes.
Thanks!

Date: 2010-02-19 05:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sacredmime.livejournal.com
A few months ago, I had asked my boyfriend if there were any female werewolves in Twilight, because I thought that would be something different and interesting. I do think werewolves are often associated with men, mostly due to the whole savage and hairy thing. :) But I also think people are happy to see variations on the traditional monster tropes.

Date: 2010-02-20 06:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
I haven't tried reading the Twilight books but someone further down on this thread mentioned that there are female werewolves later on in the series. Just so long as they don't sparkle...
Thanks for your thoughts!

Date: 2010-02-19 06:33 pm (UTC)
pameladean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pameladean
Even if there is something ineluctably masculine about werewolves, just smacking that concept with a large heavy object would sure make ME happy.

I had a female werewolf in my novel, but had to cut that whole character out. I am hoping to put her in the sequel.

Edited to correct typo that kind of ruined the reference.

P.
Edited Date: 2010-02-19 06:34 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-02-20 06:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Will chanting "Sequel, sequel" help? :-)
And yes, I completely agree with you. I just thought it was interesting and rather timely when I got the link from Pam's blog.

Date: 2010-02-19 08:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tagwn.livejournal.com
Terry Pratchett has female werewolves in his books. One is even in the Ahnk Morpork guard.

Date: 2010-02-20 07:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Ah yes, I vaguely remember that one.

Date: 2010-02-19 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vyrdolak1998.livejournal.com
The Howling movies (first one was 1981) certainly had female werewolves--remember Dee Wallace wolfing out at the anchor desk during a live news program? At the end of Wolf (1994), it's definitely implied that Michelle Pfeiffer's character is a werewolf, having been bitten during the climactic melee, but we don't see her fully change. The Twilight saga has one, Leah Clearwater, who will appear in the Eclipse movie played by Julia Jones. (I guess the tribe ran out of eligible males for the unprecedented concentration of vampires in Forks!)

If you're looking at shapeshifting rather than wolves per se, consider the Cat People movies--original and 1982 remake with Nastassja Kinski turning into a panther. There is a long folklore tradition of female shapeshifters, but they usually turn into something feline rather than wolves (or bears, another common male shapeshifter in folklore). That doesn't mean they're any less powerful or lethal. A number of vampire movies have featured female vamps who shapeshifted into scary, monsterific things, just not the typical "wolf man" or werewolf.

But no, I don't think a female werewolf is pushing the envelope, not at all. And as for whether people will read your book: that depends on the characters, plot and writing, not the gimmick! I think it sounds interesting, FWIW. :-)

Date: 2010-02-20 07:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
I was trying to remember the name of that very film. The first one certainly doesn't end well for her but I've never seen the sequel. Or Wolf, for that matter. I'll add it to my list. If you haven't seen the "Ginger Snaps" movies, I'd recommend them. Definitely worth watching.
I've been pretty focused on the werewolves myself, but yes, you're right, there is a bunch of interesting shapeshifter stuff out there. And thanks for the thoughts on the WIP. :-)

Date: 2010-02-20 12:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stacia-seaman.livejournal.com
Patricia Briggs has two series that feature female werewolves. I'm pretty sure at least one of her Mercy Thompson books hit #1 on the NYT bestseller list.

Date: 2010-02-20 07:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Mercy is a skinwalker who turns into a coyote (not linked to lunar cycles) but there are some female werewolves and at least one gay werewolf in the local pack. The first few books are an entertaining read (I'm still working my way through the series). :-)

Date: 2010-02-20 01:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sacchig.livejournal.com
It's possible that wolves in general are imagined as male. To my mind, though, the top wolf in literature is Raksha the Demon, Mowgli's Mother Wolf in The Jungle Book, "who was not called The Demon for compliment's sake". Even the tiger knew enough to back off from her.

Date: 2010-02-20 07:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
I'd completely forgotten about her; I don't remember her playing a big role in the book, but perhaps it's just been too long.

Date: 2010-02-20 04:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ruralwriter.livejournal.com
Kelley Armstrong has a female were of the 20-something age, IIRC.

Date: 2010-02-20 07:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Where she's presented as the only one, in and of itself a tad weird. I've seen her explanation page but it doesn't quite work me.

Date: 2010-02-20 07:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ruralwriter.livejournal.com
Well, that's just weird! Go forth and represent!

Date: 2010-02-20 07:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
I thought so to. On the other hand, I wouldn't have looked for that page on her website if you hadn't mentioned it so now I've got something else to riff off. :-)

Date: 2010-02-20 04:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] haddayr.livejournal.com
To be honest, I think it's because you decided to make the werewolves female, and made them so damn powerful and sexy, that explains my intense interest in the book. You're turning my unconscious assumptions about werewolves, masculinity, femininity, and sexuality on their heads.

Date: 2010-02-20 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Have I mentioned that you rock? Today at least? :-)
Thanks! Someday it will actually be done enough so you and the other folks who've asked can read it. I'm over the self-appointed halfway mark so in theory, it'll pick up speed.
(And sorry I was out of it last night - woke with a migraine from Hell very early this morning, so apparently I was wandering down that particular slope. Bleah!).

Date: 2010-02-20 07:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] haddayr.livejournal.com
:-)

yay for over the 1/2way mark!

I didn't notice you were out of it; you just seemed quiet, but we were trying no to disturb Roy's reading. I'm so sorry you had a migraine!

Date: 2010-02-20 07:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
There was a brief period this morning when I thought about changing my status all around to "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something." But we're over that part now. Plus it would have involved sitting up and looking at the sunshiny bright computer screen of doom. Urgh. :-(
On another note, looking forward to the unveiling of your book too, I might add. :-)

Date: 2010-02-20 10:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] haddayr.livejournal.com
On another note, looking forward to the unveiling of your book too, I might add. :-)


Well, I'm so pleased that I'm going to be able to furnish you with the joy of anticipation for a nice, long time. sigh

Date: 2010-02-20 06:03 pm (UTC)
annathepiper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] annathepiper
Speaking as a woman who's naturally quite hairy, I'm ALL FOR good books about female werewolves. I'd totally read yours. :)

Date: 2010-02-20 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catherineldf.livejournal.com
Excellent! :-) I'm on the furry side myself so I also had the reaction "Why is furry a bad thing?"

Date: 2010-02-20 11:10 pm (UTC)
annathepiper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] annathepiper
Also: mad props for older heroines!

Date: 2010-02-20 10:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] haddayr.livejournal.com
Love the icon; what's it from?

Date: 2010-02-20 11:09 pm (UTC)
annathepiper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] annathepiper
The video for "Ordinary Day", a song by the Canadian band Great Big Sea. :)

Date: 2010-02-20 11:28 pm (UTC)
annathepiper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] annathepiper
You're quite welcome!

Date: 2010-02-20 11:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] haddayr.livejournal.com
I'm listening to it/watching it; I LOVE them! What a delightful discovery to brighten a sad and worrying day. Thank you so much!

Date: 2010-02-20 11:51 pm (UTC)
annathepiper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] annathepiper
Delighted to hear it! These boys are my favorite band, and "Ordinary Day" is my all-time favorite song by them. :)

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